Zitat von radical_dreamerThere is a problem with respect and politeness: when you get attacked first, usually you don't feel like being respectful and polite in return, you just want to defend yourself and make your point. I guess this is part of human nature. l
Um... what the heck just happened? As far as I can tell, it looks like radical_dreamer posted an e-mail from Mr. Arem with new information (namely that the sequel wasn't actually finished and would need coders to do so), and next thing I know neomix21 is making fun of him for some unfathomable reason. Am I missing something? Did radical_dreamer actually do anything wrong?
On topic, I am actually rather surprised, judging from the list of rooms in the notes, and this latest e-mail, to learn that the second half of the game- especially (apparently) Act IV- wasn't completed. Unless there's something we're missing (characters, items, rooms added later in production) the sequel looks to be quite sparse. I mean, I can't even tell where most of the locations even are in relationship to each other. Where is the dentist's office supposed to be, anyhow? That's why I think, even if Arem did get financial backing to release the real deal, our contributions may still be quite valuable. As far as we know, there are still gaps to fill- characters to design, plotlines to develop, voices to record. Just because the true sequel may come to light doesn't mean we can't continue to come up with new ideas. I think it would be in our best interests to offer our talents to Mr. Arem in order to complete the game.
Thanks for not understanding what happened thymime! I was starting to wonder what was wrong with me To be honest, I didn't understand either
I don't want to dwell on the subject, so I'll just say it was a tragic misundersanting who degenerated into a fierce sparring match. Fortunately, it's all over now.
I assume you refer to Richard Hare's 2003 interview: " In the original story, once Drew escaped from Nefarious's castle, he and Flux were supposed to ride a "Train of Thought" (remember the train tracks area in Zanydu?) up to an island in the sky. Here, Drew explores his own fears and fantasies within a carnival setting (there was a Wild West shootout, an encounter with Drew's artist idol, Van Gogh, and a visit to a maniacal dentist). Finally, Drew needs to kick-start his imagination/creativity (represented by a huge lighthouse) and defeat both Fluffy Fluffy Bun Bun and Nefarious in the process."
YES, even if Keith Arem gets financial backing to release the real deal (which I hope he does), your contributions will still be quite valuable! I also think every TS fan would benefit from your help if you offered your talents to Keith Arem in order to complete the game. It could bring about a result as brilliant as Broken Sword 2.5. We want you!
I'm really glad some fans behind the TS2 project are actually willing to help Keith Arem. Thanks for your motivational speech tymime, YOU made my day!
Ok as there has been quite a lot of postings in the past few hours i will try to react on all of them in just two or three posts: At first, what the hell happpened? I read all the posts and didn't get why there was this kind of discussion... Second, @tymime: thanks for the great work relating the track list
Now on to the discussion thing;
"...homemade amateur project, but we're talking about the REAL stuff here, it may be our only chance to ever play the actual Toonstruck 2 as it was always meant to be!" Do you really think so? I mean he wrote that they want to "improve Toonstruck to todays Standards". I mean this is exactly what we DONT want to happen. TS is perfect and shouldnt be altered in any way (of course this doesnt mean that a re release for windows 7 (without the need of my toon launcher of course) would be ok) but it sounds like they would try to make it more interesting for todays gamers. todays gamers wouldn't accept a game like TS and so they would need to alter it to much (just my opinion.)
Next thing (and most important in my opinion) is, that i get really angry when i read a post like yours. I mean this fan project has been formed to create the Toonstruck the Fans dream of.From the Mail you can read that the developers just think of money and how they could get money out of TS & TS2. Thats just WRONG!. If they really would be interested in making TS 2 they would help us and make it available for free. I dont want to play TS2 with the fact in mind that it was only created because the developers get 50 Euros for every single copy of it.
To cut this one short: - Playing TS 2 is the main aim of all of us - In my opinion TS2 should be created out of the love for the game and not due to financial reaons. - Do you really think that we (as the fans) will have anything to do with the project? i mean come on be realistic they dont give a damn. they have their writers and they just want to create a catchy story tat is attractive to the (todays!) masses. - and last: If you think that the official TS 2 as it would be created today is what you want to play, i'm fine with it. but as for me, i will stand behind this project for the love of Toonstruck and for the sake of the Fans Dreams.
who ever disagrees with my opinion is free to participate in this movement(and of course to comment on my post) but keep in mind that by supporting this financial machinery you will sell your imagination yabout your own personal and of course free TS2
ZitatI mean he wrote that they want to "improve Toonstruck to todays Standards". I mean this is exactly what we DONT want to happen. TS is perfect and shouldnt be altered in any way (of course this doesnt mean that a re release for windows 7 (without the need of my toon launcher of course) would be ok) but it sounds like they would try to make it more interesting for todays gamers. todays gamers wouldn't accept a game like TS and so they would need to alter it to much (just my opinion.)
I beg to differ, as I have a totally different interpretation of what Keith wrote. What Keith said is that in order "to bring the game up to today’s standards", the team would have "to restore many of the original assets, rebuild much of the original code, and re-incorporate the materials into the project." Toonstruck's story, characters, environments, riddles and jokes are timeless, this is why the game was an instant classic. What aged bad however is the video part, however. Remember what was the native resolution of the game, 640*480 maybe? Or the scan-line compressed FMV? Put away your nostalgia lenses and you'll see how it is outdated. If you want an example, try the recent remakes of the first and second Monkey Island games and switch between classic mode and hi-res look, the difference is obvious. Another example: Blade Runner is a wonderful sci-fi adventure game but nowadays its voxel pixellated characters look like crap: this doesn't mean by re-releasing it developers would feel the urge to alter its gameplay or storytelling. A new edition of Toonstruck wouldn't betray any of the original's gameplay features, as Keith hinted to today’s graphic standards. Revolutionizing TS's gameplay wouldn't make any sense (adventure games' mechanics are archaic and this is why we like them) and it would be way too expensive and time-consuming anyway.
ZitatNext thing (and most important in my opinion) is, that i get really angry when i read a post like yours. I mean this fan project has been formed to create the Toonstruck the Fans dream of.From the Mail you can read that the developers just think of money and how they could get money out of TS & TS2. Thats just WRONG!. If they really would be interested in making TS 2 they would help us and make it available for free. I dont want to play TS2 with the fact in mind that it was only created because the developers get 50 Euros for every single copy of it.
I have a huge scoop for you. Are you ready? ... People do things for money (mostly, and sometimes by passion too), including video game developers. In case you don't remember, Burst Studios and Virgin Interactive made Toonstruck for money too (which doesn't prevent designers to be passionated by their work). The other great video games are made for money too, as well as great movies, for instance. Some of the most famous paintings were ordered by kings or patron of the arts. I'm not here to open a debate on the relationship between art and money, or the financialization of the video game industry, because it is far beyond my knowledge and beyond the scope of our debate (although I hold strong criticism to capitalism, but that's another story). Though, just because you're ready to work for free on your spare time doesn't imply every other person should do the same. Keith needs money to pay skilled people to finish the "considerable amount of programming and development" that is left to be done, that's all. Need I remember you the cost of the original TS development was well over $10M dollars in 1996? As much as Keith loves his game, he may not be ready to lose a heap of money on the sequel and I understand him: restoring TS 1 & 2 assets is going to cost quite a few bucks and I fail to understand why Keith wouldn't want to cover the expenses, at least. Developers deserve to be paid for their good work, as every other talented craftsmen.
On a side note, do you know why online distribution is favoured by indie studios? Because this channel of distribution enables them to get the share of profit they deserve. Look at Telltale Games, for example. Not surprisingly, Keith was considering releasing the upgraded version of TS online. We're not talking about fattening retailers and publishers here, just giving developers the pay they deserve for their art.
Accordingly, this is the reason why I buy my games, instead of cracking them. Money isn't evil per se, and I don't see the problem buying good developers' games so as to help them develop other great games. But here again, I digress.
Zitat- Playing TS 2 is the main aim of all of us
I'm not so sure: of which TS2 are you talking about? The real TS2 or your vision of it? I'd like to play both, but it is quite unclear whether it's also your case or not.
Zitat- In my opinion TS2 should be created out of the love for the game and not due to financial reaons.
Take a list of the 50/100 best video games ever on the Internet and count how many were released free of charge. Be my guest. For the record, Burst Studios wanted to finish the second game, but it is the publisher, Virgin Interactive, which terminated the ill-fated project, because they had lost a HUGE amount of cash and didn't want to lose any more. It has nothing to do with betrayal or blood-thirsty capitalists. It sucks, but it's understandable, from a financial point of view.
Zitat- Do you really think that we (as the fans) will have anything to do with the project? i mean come on be realistic they dont give a damn. they have their writers and they just want to create a catchy story tat is attractive to the (todays!) masses.
If I didn't sincerely believe fans wouldn't have anything to do with the project, I wouldn't have wasted my time coming here. I contacted you for a reason I already detailed in my earlier reply: Keith is looking for every bit of help to finish the job on TS2 and build awareness around the game, your support would be much needed. Marketing for masses isn't relevant here. I am always willing to support the underdoga and this would make for one heck of a tremendous success story.
If you want an example of successful collaboration between fans and game development studios, have a look at "Arsenal of Democracy" on http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/arsenal-of-democracy It is based on Hearts of Iron II and its Europa engine. It was developed by BL-Logic, a development studio made up by fans of the Hearts of Iron series and active members of the modding community. The game became possible due to Paradox Interactive licensing the Europa engine to independent developers. You may answer me BL-Logic sold their souls to evil capitalists, but the game was a success.
Zitat- and last: If you think that the official TS 2 as it would be created today is what you want to play, i'm fine with it. but as for me, i will stand behind this project for the love of Toonstruck and for the sake of the Fans Dreams.
I guess it is here our paths diverge. I failed to convince you, but it appears it was a hopeless endeavour, since you had already made up your mind, long, long ago.
please read my other post... and in addition: I might be wrong but i think you have no idea whats going on in the open source region of the internet. if you think money is the material needed for quality your wrong.
From reading your posts i get the impression that you are the user site of the internet. i mean you just use the products and the only thing important is that it works. but have you ever searched around the open source world? i mean would you like to pay hundreds of dollars for a microsoft office license, if you can get open office for only one click? i know that open source might not have the quality as paid software but is the difference between open office and microsofts office wort hundreds of dollars? in the open source area there are equivalents for almost every software.
One more thing: if Keith needs people to help him coding the game or whatever he would find millions on the internet who would work for free. these open source friends are the most important basis for every software because they can create things even an official developer couldn't create. i mean open source projects can be improved by every freelancer in the world and a developer has only his "few" hundred workers.
I know that this point of view might be really drastic but if you take a look at the intention i want to express, i think you could understand me.
Okay, I must say that I entirely agree with radical_dreamer. The world needs more positive outlooks- they're what gets things done. That's why I think you ought to be more positive, unterbuchse. How can you have fun with this project if you don't have a little hope?
And besides, who's to stop us from suggesting ideas to Keith Arem? And the ultimate question- who's to stop us from creating new ideas to complete the story in the first place? I think we should keep doing what we're doing and then ask if we could join Keith's team. I think this is a great opportunity for all of us.
And if not- if he doesn't want to use our ideas- we can always just have an alternative version of the story for people to try.
I guess my point is that we should give it a shot and not let anything get us down.
Next time, I will think twice before multiposting the same message (D'oh!)
ZitatI might be wrong but i think you have no idea whats going on in the open source region of the internet. if you think money is the material needed for quality your wrong. From reading your posts i get the impression that you are the user site of the internet. i mean you just use the products and the only thing important is that it works. but have you ever searched around the open source world? i mean would you like to pay hundreds of dollars for a microsoft office license, if you can get open office for only one click? i know that open source might not have the quality as paid software but is the difference between open office and microsofts office wort hundreds of dollars? in the open source area there are equivalents for almost every software.
It may come as a surprise to you but I actually support open source initiatives: I'm familiar with Open Office, Linux, Firefox, 7Zip, etc. I am aware open source approches enable a self-enhancing diversity of production models, communication paths, and interactive communities. I know open source software does not require to think about commercial pressure that often degrades the quality of the software, that it helps produce reliable, high quality software quickly and inexpensively since it typically has thousands of independent programmers testing and fixing bugs of the software.
Of course, you realize there is a distinction between free software and open-source (that's another story).
Zitat One more thing: if Keith needs people to help him coding the game or whatever he would find millions on the internet who would work for free. these open source friends are the most important basis for every software because they can create things even an official developer couldn't create. i mean open source projects can be improved by every freelancer in the world and a developer has only his "few" hundred workers.
I assume you're familiar with the particuliar status of video games: they're software, but also works of art. Hence we have to distinguish between the source code itself and the assets (graphics, music, story, etc.). The source code being opened to public doesn't mean the assets are not copyrighted, so we have to be careful. This is why open-source video games stand out from the rest of open source software. Can you quote a single open-source video game that became a landmark in gaming history and that wasn't a copy of another game? Honestly, I cannot think of a single example. For some famous games (id Software shooters, for instance), the source code was released, but it was years after the commercial release of the games themselves. I'm also thinking of the "Humble Indie Bundle", whose source code was eventually made available under the GNU General Public License... A few months after the release of the related games.
It may come as a surprise to you, but the first Toonstruck was not open-source software: could you imagine how such a game could have been developed with an open-source approach? With the existing commercial approach, it already took 4 years for Burst to finish half the game. Should it have been developed in open-source, it would have taken 10 years at least (I'm kinda exxagerating here, but you see my point). Do you think Christopher Lloyd would have contributed to some small open-source project, free of charge?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not confortable with the current financialization of the video game industry: for instance, the rise of DLC and micro-transactions just makes me sick, because major publishers treat gamers as if they were cash cows. Still, I can't reject the whole video game industry because of the recent abuses. This would be too easy.
I encourage you to make a clear distinction between video game developers and publishers. In an ideal world, we would not need publishers: indie game studios try to sell games without resorting to publishers, and I support this initiative by buying great indie games such as Braid, Machinarium, World of Goo, etc. Developers are just like you, but they chose to make a living of their passion. They don't necessarily work for profit, they just hope to make enough money with their game in order to be able to develop the next one, that's all. Remember what Keith said: "I have remained in contact with many of my colleagues from the Toonstruck project, and we’ve considered reviving the project for the past several years." All these guys were employees from Burst Studios, they didn't decide to cut the game in half, nor to cancel the development of Toonstruck 2. When Virgin Interactive terminated the project, Burst had to close its doors and all the employees lost their jobs. I'm sure they were devastated, not only because they were laid off, but also because they were prevented to finish their masterpiece.
I have to tell you I'm a junior business school graduate, so perhaps my judgment is biased, although I'm so critical against finance and capitalism I've been labeled "Left wing" and even "communist" by my schoolmates. Once, I had the opportunity to work as an assistant product manager for a video game developer. Halfway through the development of a new game for the PSP, our publisher canceled the project: you can't imagine how pissed off I was. I wanted to shout at the publisher, to call them names, but I eventually understood it would be futile. Eventually, I gave up my career in video game marketing because it made me sick as a gamer. Nevertheless, it is not because we must not submit ourselves entirely to capitalism that we have to fight it relentlessly or to reject everything that is money related. My point is: we should not be ideological, but pragmatic. Please, don't see the whole video game industry as a single giant monolith. The reality of video game development is much more complex. If the current initiative behind the return of Toonstruck had been launched by a publisher, I would not have invested my time into this endeavour.
I could continue my rant forever, but I think we both understood each other's positions. I'm not here to change your convictions, but I really hope someday you try to think out of the box and change your perspective about things. I'm sure you have excellent reasons for dismissing the software industry, but that doesn't mean your point of view will never evolve.
I wish you contact Keith and his former colleagues somedays to discuss all this: it might turn out you have more in common than you think. :D
I started the petition, facebook group and twitter account after writing Keith Arem. If you squint real hard, you can see my original posts way back there through the thickets of alternating bullshit and awesome clarity. Rather than do my triumphant return justice by posting a long diatribe about this and that, I'm going to take the easy way out.
i dont think i need to write a long answer so: This is a simple and easy wish: Take OUR material and OUR Link out of your pages. i already send a mail but it seems that you dint react. so this is the last friendly try to make you understand that we WONT participate in your project.
The petition is un-editable. The logo is not yours to claim, nor is it mine, as it is technically part and parcel of the intellectual property of the game's creators/publishers. That you would willingly stifle a steady stream of people interested in Toonstruck and potential collaborators in the fan project is a fitting final testament to the stubbornness you have demonstrated at every turn in the discussions surrounding the creation of an official sequel; a goal you appear to strive for in name only. The profound disappointment that has been my coming to know the true desires and motivations of the Toonstruck 2 Fan Project has me in no mood to entertain any personal favors on your behalf.